Misc Thoughts on 40k

11/16/2011

Just some random thoughts on what I wouldn't mind seeing in 40k. Some of these are simple concepts in theory, but might end up being no-go ideas because of game balance & complexity factors. I mean, who cares if it is the best mechanic in the world if it ends up taking fifteen minutes to figure out who died from a squad of bolter rapid fire?

The easy "fluffy" wish: "Personalized" subarmies in the various "generic" codices. Pretty much giving bonuses to different chapters, legions, craftworlds, etc. Crimson Fists could get Preferred Enemy vs. Orks. Iron Hands get the Bionics special ability at least on anything above a plain Battle Brother, etc. Deathworlder IG get +1S or T or I to simulate whatever has been selected for in the population. Various forms of elite trained IG could get +1Ld. This would quickly get into the "hard to balance" area because for some codices it could run into combinations of units and special abilities that could be lethal on the table. Otherwise, IMO, most of these could be simulated by either a flat or percentage cost for one Vet skill and/or Stat upgrade for ~3-5 points per model.

The harder ones because of balance or complexity issues:

Add a Movement stat to the units. Say 3" (Lumbering slow stuff), 4" (Normal human stuff), 6" (Fast stuff). Which means some MC & most Walkers would be 3"; IG, most MC & some Walkers - 4"; a few MC, Power armored or extra fast models -6". Jump packs/Flight & beasts/cavalry would give double movement. Assault movement would be unaffected, both for balance and because it simulates a "burst of speed" for the slower things. The purpose is mainly to provide a better reason for transports (assuming they take a hit in 6th Edition) and to turn power armor into something besides a fancy set of carapace armor.
Range, weapon type and movement modifiers to shooting. The idea is to adjust the BS skill by the mods and use the current system. Shooting unit moves: -1 BS unless Assault weapon, Firing a Heavy Weapon while moving: -2BS, Target unit moves 6"+ : -1BS, Target unit moves 12"+: -2 BS, Shooting unit doesn't move: +1 BS, Sniper weapon not moving: +2BS, Fire with half weapons (Bracing weapons/Aiming, rounded down): +1BS, for each 12" range bracket after the first: -1BS (IOW, no mod up to 12", -1BS for 12"+ to 24", -2 for 24"+ to 36"), etc. The problem is that it would require a chart of modifiers to be learned, complicating the game. Also, some adjusting of BS would be required. Although some of it can be balanced trivially, for example, if the idea is that all base Marines can move normally, fire at up to 12" range at a target with a 2/3 chance to hit, then you'd make them BS5, a +1 gain to offset the movement penalty. However if they stand still with RF Bolters to shoot one shot at something between 12-24" away, their effective BS would 4.
Overwatch/Final Protective Fire: I don't think I'd want a full "overwatch" rule, say roll Ld, get to shoot the enemy just as they charge into assault, no "Blast" weapons and "Templates" auto hit four enemy models but only with weapons that were not fired in the unit's last shooting phase. Possibly too complicated to keep track of. Oh, the charging unit's hip shooting as it comes in doesn't count, that is what their previous shooting phase was about.
Armor Saves vs shooting adjusted by AP. This does not touch invulnerable or cover saves and models with only invulnerable saves do NOT get any modifiers from this. This does change up some of the worth of cover and invulnerable saves some, but I think produces a more "fluffy" result. Pretty much, every model gets a 5+ armor save vs. the same AP, then adjusts it by +1 for every level their armor save is better than the AP and -1 for every level it is worse. Ahhh, this is easier to see in a table and I cannot seem to get a table in Weebly. Vertical axis is "-", 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for AP. Horizontal is "-", 6+, 5+, 4+, 3+, 2+ for armor saves. Fill the diagonal from top left to bottom right with "5+", then as you go up each column the progression is 4+, 3+, 2+. Going down the column, it is 6+, "-" (No armor save). What does this do? It means heavier armored models shrug off lighter weapons easier, but are more vulnerable to weapons with lower AP.. Power Armor is 3+ vs Bolter fire and 2+ vs anything lesser, but are only 4+ vs AP4, 5+ vs AP3 and gain 6+ vs AP2. Yep, Space Marines will be wading through lasgun fire a lot easier, bolter fire just the same, but will have higher casualties from heavy bolters, autocannon and will actually have a slight chance of surviving AP2 fire. The only way to get autowounds will be to have one level greater AP than AS. Will this idea mess with everybody's mathhammer!
Vehicles with sponson weapons should get +1AV (max AV14) on their flanks and "Fast" if they don't take the sponsons. I'm sorry, sponson weapons are just too WW1ish and this also allows for builds that field Predators sans sponsons as actual tanks that move and shoot in a mechanized assault rather than sit & hide trying to cover their flanks from shooting. The same would work for Leman Russ tanks.

2 Comments

Devjon link

11/18/2011 02:26:52 am

While the fluff wishes are a cool idea, things like what the Crimson Fists get would make some people mad (just like Grey Knights getting benefits against Daemons), and when you compare it to what the suggestion is for Iron Hands you run into balance issues (like Specialist Priests in AD&D). However I don't think it would be that hard to test in something like a campaign where you can compare them to only the codices that are there (maybe even take it to specific players that fits their personal army better). Still, there's some potential there.

#1 is kind of interesting, but it hurts assaulty armies without some special form of movement (Orks come to mind, as do Tyranids) and they move slower without a transport.

#2 seems interesting because it encourages you to move in order to be harder to hit, but it also encourages you to sit tight so that you're more likely to hit. Of course, assaulty armies won't sit tight and shooty armies won't move around much, so it kind of hampers mobile shooty armies. It also sounds like something that could get abused badly, though I'm not entirely sure how.

#3 probably wouldn't go into which models fired or didn't, it would just count the whole unit like most rules do (moving with a Heavy Weapon in the squad comes to mind, as does one guy moving through difficult terrain). But if the Overwatch rule were to return, it would be okay so long as you got to shoot at the end of your opponent's turn (so there wouldn't be the chance of you coming out to shoot or assault and your opponent's units killing all of your guys with Overwatch).

In the same vein, perhaps something like Suppression fire? You shoot, they can only take cover saves, but rather than causing wounds and killing guys, they have to pass a pinning test at their Ld minus how many you got (so it wouldn't be always a great thing to do, but if all you need to do is keep those Terminators from shooting/assaulting you it would be better than just shooting at them). Maybe allow regular armor saves, I don't know.

But the problem with both of these is that it gives further advantage to shooting armies and, for a reason that I'm not sure of exactly, I get the feeling that GW is going to try to change the current dominance of shooting towards something more balanced. Again, I can't say why I just have that feeling.

#4 would be hard to implement, and wouldn't make a big difference most of the time. Although with a table it could be done fairly easily (similar to the table for To Wound rolls). So the difficulty to benefit ratio is low (I haven't seen this around, but don't go quoting me on it :) )

#5 So, if not taking Sponson weapons makes tanks fast (obviously not things like Rhinos, but only things like Predators), why are the Blood Angels paying for it? Of course, you could probably give them some other benefit, but it kind of furthers problems with Vindicators and encourages Predators in any form. There is no drawback to this to balance it and I don't see a reason to have forward Predators (hmm, +1 AV on the sides of my otherwise normal Predator...I'm even more safe in the backfield!).

Algesan link

11/21/2011 01:43:26 am

I don't think the "easy" stuff would be a big deal, CF getting PE vs Orks only isn't that big a deal in that case. The idea that "veteran" Iron Fists get what is basically a 6+ FNP would require a point cost. The rest of the "easy" stuff really does boil down to about 3-5 points per model. So, Deathworlder IG with +1S would cost a few points more per model. About the same as equipping Vets with Carapace armor or stealth cloaks. In fact, simply saying that only "Vets" can get skills will make it cost enough IMO.

1. It could be set to make it work. I'm just irked that the vaunted Power Armor is nothing more than fancy carapace. Several solutions to that problem, but this is the easiest.
2. Oh, that can be fun other ways, for example, add in accuracy sighting wargear choices. The question is always do you stop & aim or move & use suppressive fire. 40k really doesn't have any kind of true suppression fire mechanic. The best approximation is offensive grenades which auto suppresses the defenders in cover so they don't get first swing. Pinning checks from Sniper or Barrage weapons doesn't really count.
3. Now that had crossed my mind, but still as the idea of using only the unfired weapons. Using the squad as a whole, maybe with a negative to BS and all the "wounds" count for would be Ld negatives. The #1 problem with template weapons is that there are far too many decent unit choices that negate taking them because their use can be too limited. Really this applies to all real short range weapons.

I've been in too many situations where I need to move up and grab a firing position in cover to set something up, but cannot afford to do so because I cannot fire any of my weapons at an assault unit because it is out of range to be shot, but can move + run + assault further than I can shoot.

4. I'd need to work that around some more as for how well it would work. This is a double "fix" that potentially adds an extra layer of complexity. For Marines, it means they are virtually immune to AP- & AP6 weapons (2+ AS), the same against bolter fire (3+) which kind of enhances armor to give better saves, but also makes higher AP weapons more lethal. However, I'd prefer other things than this be done first.

5. Because Blood Angels can take Predators with sponsons and still be Fast, but others would have to give up the sponsons to get Fast. Giving up the sponsons means that you can move 6" with a tank and still shoot its main gun. Or you can stay still and shoot its main gun. It offers mobility and a tiny bit more AV to tanks.

Skipping that bit, the main thing is that sponson weapons should be able to target independently. "Hey Sarge, I see a squad of Boyz charging up to us, permission to cut loose?"
"No, I have to shoot that bugger over there, so safe your weapon unless you can shoot it at the bugger I'm shooting at!"
"WTF, over?"
"Ignore the fact that you have a trigger, sighting port and the ability to shoot those guys, just do what I say!"

Misc Thoughts on 40k

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