Rethinking the Deep Strike list

10/6/2011

In terms of the new NOVA terrain meta....

The following is from Marshal Laeroth and is his version of the "Defensive Drop Pod" list.
HQ: 2x Castellan w/ Power Weapon and Combi-Melta; 3 Command Squad Initiates w/ 2 Meltaguns & 1 Bolter; 1 Apothecary w/ Bolter and Narthecium; 1 Command Squad Sergeant w/ Bolter. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [480]
1x Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, Frag Grenades, and the Vow: "Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds." [140]
Elites: 3x Dreadnought w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, and Extra Armor. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [450]
Troops: 6x Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 4 Bolters & 1 Meltagun. Mounted in a Drop Pod. [720]
Fast Attack: 3x Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ Heavy Bolter and Typhoon Missile Launchers. [210]
Total Points: [2000]

The biggest weakness of this list: the easy access to KP for your opponent. 28 of them to be exact. That is one of the big factors that steered me towards my version:
1 Emperor's Champion – Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds [140]
1 Assault Terminator (3xTLC, 2xTH/SS, Furious Charge) [215]
2 Terminator (2xCyclone ML/SB/PF, 2xSB/PF, 1xSB/CF, Tank Hunter) [540]
1 Crusader (5/0, Melta, Pod-SB) [120]
1 Crusader (5/1, Melta, Pod-SB) [130]
3 Crusader (5/1, Melta, PF, Pod-SB) [435]
6 Land Speeder Typhoon (HB/Typhoon ML) [420]

I'm exploiting the FAQ to pile in some concentrated long range firepower. The primary use for the Assault Terminator are threat. The list only provides 17 KP for an opponent, but does lose a bit the flexibility of the DDP list by dropping the number of units actually available to deep strike, even if I reserve the entire list (14 vs. 11). For other comparisons, Marshal Laeroth's NOVA Gunline was 17 KP as well as his currently proposed 2012 BT NOVA list, while his 2012 DE NOVA list has a whopping 23 KP. Pretty much, it reins in the kill point problem of the DDP and brings it down to the size of a generic mech/hybrid list's kill point total. Which I can live with because despite all the hoopla about "open top", Drop Pods remain a lot harder to kill than Rhinos.

It also avoids something that may be part of my local meta, the butchering of the Dreadnoughts which happens as all of the enemy's AT firepower engages them with glee. I'm sorry, 150 points for what (for me at least) turns out to be land -> shoot something -> die, just isn't worth it. OTOH, I can start out with my big punch on the table and use the drop pod squads to claim objectives, block and suicide melta.

The second factor after kill points was running into a Dark Eldar player early on and while there were other flaws in my initial game, the one that stuck out was that I was looking at an entire army that had moved flat out so had a 4+ save vs anything I threw at it. Half of my firepower was simply gone. Now I was less adverse to starting with my Terminators and LS-Typhoons on the board because even if they pull the flat out thing, I'm still restricting them to only part of the board.

What I'm worried about most right now is learning to play my army better. At this point, I don't think it matters much to me one way or the other how the terrain has been placed. I've won and lost games on open middle boards and close terrain boards and which I prefer depends on my opponent's list. I'm losing game to n00b errors, but fortunately I don't tend to be repeating them, at least not overtly. I still catch myself wanting to throw one more shot at X when I've already stunned it this turn, just to "try and finish it off". That ends up being a shot I waste usually. Usually, but not always, which is why I'm still working on that one. The last three games I played were objectives and even though by KP/VP (and even table quarters) standards I lost pretty badly, in the end, I was holding more uncontested objectives than my opponent.

A huge observation I've noticed over the last few months since I last played a 'Nid player where I first noticed it clearly. The key to my list in objective games is forcing my opponent to commit to something, even if it is his own battle plan and then disrupt it by making him counter march. As soon as I can get the enemy's strike elements moving the wrong way for even one turn, I can block, stifle, entrap, tarpit and ambush him until time runs out.

8 Comments

Devjon link

10/15/2011 12:48:46 pm

It must be the area you play in for those Dreadnoughts dying. I recently played against myself and the two Dreadnoughts in my list survived several turns, usually the entire 7-turn game. There were just too many Drop Pods and everything was just too close together for the other list to bring very much anti-tank firepower against them.

One thing to realize is that along with the reduced available Kill Points you have, you also don't have as many threats for your opponent to deal with. You've only got 11 separate threats for your opponent and 5 Drop Pods, Marshal Learoth's DDP list has 14 separate threats and 11 Drop Pods, which means he controls the board far more easily and his opponents have a harder time with Target Priority and just reducing the effectiveness of his list. The higher potential Kill Points aren't a hindrance, if anything they are an advantage.

Algesan link

10/16/2011 08:18:23 am

It might well be local, there are very few lists that have multiple power fist (or equivalent) equipped squads, so if I could get into HTH (and have when I've played a lower point list where the DN replaces the Assault Terminators), it became a matter of how long it took me to butcher them. The preference does seem to be concentrated CC power rather than diffuse.

On the threat/target saturation front in a regular game:
Turn 1: DDP = 0-3/DS = 5-6
Turn 2: DDP = 7-9/DS = 7-9
Turn 3: DDP = 12-12/DS = 10-10
Turn 4: DDP = 14-14/DS = 11-11

The variable in the numbers depends on:
For DDP, if Speeders are off or on board
For DS, if the Assault Terminators are deep striking or not (something I'm experimenting with to mixed results, a bit more initial fire on my dakka, but some outrageous concentration of firepower when they teleport into the middle of the enemy's army, which they can take).

So, DS has it better on turn one, even on turn two, DDP starts pulling ahead after that in threats. The difference being that the DS is generally suppressing and destroying threats prior to the drop and continues to do so with more concentrated firepower since generally the DS list doesn't have to worry about when the heavy dakka is getting there. True, the dakka has to survive more firepower, but everything's a tradeoff.

Hmmm, you know what, I'll see about applying Nike's metric to both lists and see how they come out there.

Devjon link

10/17/2011 06:19:07 am

When you apply the Metric System be sure to use the same methods that he used, otherwise you just end up with numbers that have no bench-mark to base them on and that's one of the reasons the Metric System works.

Algesan link

10/21/2011 11:56:58 pm

I do use the same system. I make one exception and look at one additional detail with regards to these lists.

Exception: Because I know these lists so well, I don't figure the DLRPG stat because I know that there is "enuff" in the lists to make them viable.

Detail: Instead of combining the shooting and assault numbers for DRPG I split them out and look at them separately because it can be useful to know where you are getting your penetrating hits from. Face it, each of my THDC Terminator squads clocks in the metric as 15 DRPG(A), but the numbers are 26.5 DRPG each. Which along with the 18.75 DMCC stat, lets me know that I really need to be able to do some assaulting with my Terminator squads, including multiple assaults on vehicles.

Devjon link

10/22/2011 04:41:58 pm

One problem though is that you're taking the close combat DRPG incorrectly. You assume maximum potential damage (on a 4+ to hit) which tilts the scores. Strictly speaking, you should only take into account the Close Combat DRPG when you rely on the unit attacking vehicles in close combat. I would at least limit it to units that actually do assault vehicles in games.

You're exception is fine, Nikephoros himself has mentioned that having a high DLRPG doesn't make up for other weaknesses, it's just devastating if you don't have enough (I'm assuming you spelled that wrong on purpose).

And your detail actually makes a lot of sense. More in your list than in some, considering that you have so much of it (potentially). Just like seeing how different units provide it, seeing at what range you get it from could provide useful information.

Algesan link

10/23/2011 10:23:12 am

Yep, "enuff" was on purpose. Part of the fallout of Nike's metric for my purposes was a change in my list's play style where I'm openly courting attacking vehicles with my Terminators. I was already trending toward being more assault oriented with them because even though they are I1, they hit like a ton of bricks.

I first started at the first round of 'Ard Boyz and have been at it ever since. Not that the THDC squads main purpose in life is to assault everything in sight, but to selectively court assaults where the advantage is mine. Places like: shooting up and then finishing off a squadron of Leman Russes, beating down an immobilized Vindicator and Las/Plas Razorback, shooting and assaulting a Lysander led squad of TH/SS Terminators and their Land Raider at the same time (although that was a Castellan led THDC plus an Elite THDC, which gave some bonuses) and any generic squad without a power weapon in it (and sometimes with).

Look at it this way, I was already aware of how deadly the THDC could be in CC vs. anything but dedicated CC rock units and the metric just showed me that I was underutilizing that capability.

Lucion

11/15/2011 11:14:09 pm

Hi Algesan.

This caught my attention.

"The key to my list in objective games is forcing my opponent to commit to something, even if it is his own battle plan and then disrupt it by making him counter march. As soon as I can get the enemy's strike elements moving the wrong way for even one turn, I can block, stifle, entrap, tarpit and ambush him until time runs out. "

What is it in the list you use which conforms to the opponents self interest?

Algesan link

11/16/2011 01:19:19 am

It is nothing in the list in and of itself that forces them to move the wrong way. I have to try to read the opponent and his list to see what he is trying to do, then make him see what he wants to see. Surprise is something that happens when your opponent sees what he wants to see and not what is really going on.

How I actually try to make the misstep occur depends on not only the opponent, but how my pods fall. The simplest way is if they focus on what I have on the board and charge for it.

Or I may shift a squadron of my LS-Typhoons to one flank moving flat out, generating a threat of flanking fire and/or presenting a target just out of the way enough to tempt him to move the squad(s) to take it out.

Or I may drop a pod or two by an objective I'm really not interested in behind his lines and proceed to give it supporting fire from my long range units to make him think I'm after it and he has to respond by moving backwards or stopping for a turn.

Similarly, I may drop an isolated squad on an objective that if he just moves a couple of squads over, he could take, but if he does try, he pops out in the open.

The idea is to present a threat (actually multiple threats) that must be respected as a distraction. Hopefully, you can present it in time so that if he ignores it, you can reinforce it into a true threat.

Oh, say a Space Wolf force with a Wolf Scout unit in the two objective scenario (forget the name). Objectives are in my center and my opponent's right corner (from my POV), deployment pitched battle.

The Wolf Scout is not scoring so it can only contest the objective. I got one Pod and my Assault Terminators on turn 2. Drop my first pod on my home objective for a "safe" objective point, teleport the ATs into a clear area for fun and distraction, and then swing my LS-Typhoons to the flank. (For fun, my ATs scattered right against the ruin the Rune Priests and Long Fang squads where in, and promptly ran inside to attack next turn.) The THDC Terminators advanced up the board to the right of the center shooting away.

The result was his two Grey Hunter Rhinos stopped and turned back to disembark to shoot up my ATs along with the Long Fangs & Rune Priests. Then the Long Fangs & Rune Priests assaulted my last three ATs, all with twin LCs. It was a bloodbath, but my ATs soaked up the firepower and then scored more than they cost in the combat. In the meantime, his Wolf Guard squad in the middle shifted left(!) to get a shot as some of my Speeders. The two Grey Hunter squads in the Rhinos and the Wolf Guard squad never got back in time to decisively affect the fight to the right when I dropped the rest of my Pods to interdict between center and right while my EC, his squad and another squad cleaned up the remnants of the Grey Hunter & Long Fang squads holding the enemy's home objective.

Oh, my home objective? I didn't get it, the Wolf Scouts got chewed up some by bolter fire and Preferred Enemy melee from the one squad I dropped on it and I never bothered to reinforce. Win 1-0 on objectives.

Pushbacks: 1) What if the Assault Terminators hadn't gotten the nice scatter? Then they would have chewed on something else, if the scatter had gone the other way, it would have been my ATs contesting his home objective after clearing it. I was going to end up within 12" of something no matter where I scattered or not.
2) What if he hadn't turned back? His Rhinos would have hit my THDC Terminators and he might have faced one or more ATs loose in his rear or continuing to tie up two of his Long Fang squads. The LS-Typhoons would have had free reign to add in their fire from the flank.

Remember, I always had the option to focus fire on his objective to blow the squads there off while dropping my Pods back on my objective to kill the Wolf Scouts. I'd have ended up sacrificing a couple of Pods & squads to do movement blocking of anything that got past my THDC squads and/or assault his objective (as another threat).

Now, he could have played for a draw by contracting in and focusing on holding his home objective. That I probably couldn't have won, but to do that, it would have made playing to draw which would have doubly left the initiative in my hands to attempt to win.

Just one turn. March to the left, the have to march back to the action on the right. It is one of the uses of a Pod army because you can do the same thing by dropping a wall of Pods in the enemy's path. They have to stop, deploy and kill the Pods or work their way around them.

Rethinking the Deep Strike list

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